Nez -

Sorry to be teh bearer of bad tidings but I thought you might want to see this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/01/nyregion/01rnc.html?ref=politics

OZ

Kids always push their boundaries, we all do at sometime or another, even if we have no idea what we are doing or pushing against (after all we are all children). Give her the tools, the love and the example, everything else is up to her...

Scary isn't it!

:-)

I think you overstate the violent impact of education. I (well, figuratively) had a rather fat teacher sit on me to force me to stop insisting that I knew everything... what was the point of me being in school if I already knew everything? And I think the US has had decades of Students running everything. Your daughter seems young enough that these formative years will serve her very well, but it's not violent to take a hammer to a sheet of steel, it's just that steel needs forceful blows to shape it into something. I wouldn't assume that people are so delicate. The problem is we are taught we have to fight when in fact we just have to bend.

interesting thoughts. you throw a lot at me jammed together. i'm not sure i mean to lay down something definitive about "the violent impact of education." just musing. it occurs to me as i pay attention to childraising (this time), that it is a great responsibility, this using superior knowledge and force and size to imprint a worldview. i am musing on that responsibility. or i mean to.

i'm not sure what the anecdote about the "Fat teacher" is telling me!

"the US has had decades of students running everything."...hmmm. okay. i prefer the idea of home-schooling. but i wouldn't even know where to begin to assume advising schools in their power structures. i question the entire layout as it stands. but i don't mean to imply that students should run everything. did i make that impression? i didn't mean to do that.

"Your daughter seems young enough that these formative years will serve her very well, but it's not violent to take a hammer to a sheet of steel, it's just that steel needs forceful blows to shape it into something."

a few thoughts running together. i agree that being young allows you to be molded. that is my initial consideration, after all.

as to the latter part..."it's not violent to take a hammer to a sheet of steel, it's just that steel needs forceful blows to shape it into something."

well, okay. another way to say that is the steel needs violence, but still—yes it is violent to "take a hammer to a sheet of steel." unless you are using the word "violent" as a synonym for "bad"?

just because shaping the steel requires a violence to be shaped, doesn't mean violence should be withheld. hmmm. i think i hear that you see "violence" as a negative label in and of itself? so you are denying what you perceive is my negatively labeling my own teachings? but i both see teaching as a sort of violence, and at the same time admit that "violence" is a necessary one. my first few sentences include the idea that "Any training or teaching is a sort of violence upon the mind and free will." but i did not mean to imply that teaching is thus an unwanted or unwelcome violence. just that when you look at it a certain way, it is a violence and so it ought to be weighed very carefully. we dont go flinging hammers at sheet metal. we use technique. i don't think i'm assuming people are delicate. i think i am very carefully weighing the implications of wielding violence upon a will.

after all you could look at learning and teaching a different way, too. a different shape. this one post just talks about one way to see it. in other words, yes. you are right with the sheet metal example. the hammer and the sheet metal have a relationship that can produce beautiful and fine works. but we can see teaching as a nurturing shape, too. as in when plants bend to light, for example. we don't have to use a violent frame. but some parts of teaching a child require a consideration of my active will enacted upon a person; a constant evaluation. am i using a sheet metal method here or a photosynthesis method? maybe the entire process is finding places on that continuum.

on your last thought about bending not fighting, i think that's a great approach to many things in life. i've had moments i've had to remember that. but i don't know that my daughter is fighting me, or i fighting her, or how that may apply to the post, actually. i am not saying i will teach my daughter to fight the authorities! but for certain you can bet that i won't teach her to just bend to them, either. not with the lessons i've learned about false authority. you've GOT to be kidding! as the post implies, look around us at all the people who just bent to the lies and the will of what those leading us to war were telling us.

finally—i have edited this damn comment a few times! (you have not yet replied, but its only fair to say as much). but i found replying to your (deceptively short) comment a challenge! it puts a few different thoughts right together without transitioning...it ends up feeling almost non-sequitur and scatter-shot. quite opposed to your post writing, which is always very thoughtful and measured. so i spent some time drawing out the thoughts to see what was being said, or what i thought was being said. if you disagree with my framing, or understand better what i mean (either one or anything else), feel free to respond.

Nezua,

I think you're very right about this. There's a very fascinating chapter in Thomas Wartenberg's book The Forms of Power: From Domination to Transformation (at least I think that's the exact title) about how the power that parents and teachers have is a form of power over, but is supposed (when exercised properly) to be "transformative" -- to help children (or others) grow into autonomous people who can think for themselves and who have rich options in their lives. I really like this post for the same reason I like his chapter: the admission that yes, what's going on even with the most well-intentioned teacher or parent is a dynamic of power-over, which carries all the risks that any dynamic of power-over carries.

I think there are a lot of people that want to evade the risks of power-over by believing that it's possible not to create these kinds of dynamics at all. That the only reason we make them is because we're already living in a sick society full of hierarchies based on racism, sexism, classism, ableism, etc.

But I don't think power-over is so "easily" (yes, I realize that not even the most deeply anti-hierarchy type thinks this will be easy) overcome. I am not so sure it's avoidable, when we all start out as children and there's no way for parents at the very least (and more people than just parents, in my view) not to wield power-over. I think power-over is a part of human life.

Which might mean eradicating isms is harder, or maybe means that humans will always come up with new ones because we suck. I don't know. But I don't think that means we should get complacent and not fight injustice either, even if a truly just utopia isn't possible for critters like us.

OT:
He's baaa-aack!
Must have been a two-week rehab...ah, vacation. So far, he's not saying.

true...but it seems that your gravatar is not working! nor at his place! :(

ashes77, i don't claim that teachers are not invaluable. they often are. (i'm trying to get back to the "Students running everything" line.) just that it is easy to enforce a "Right Way/Tested Way" sort of violence of thought that can sometimes blind us to....ways to better reach what was our original goal.

My boys are big now, but your post reminded me of those days when they were so young and so perfect. How to raise them to be free and independent while keeping them safe? You might like old Magda Gerber's thoughts:

http://www.rie.org/

The RIE classes are full of rich Westside parents, but that aside, the philosophy is sound. -Don't tell your baby what she thinks. If the baby is struggling with something, stay out of it unless you're needed to prevent an injury. All good stuff.

Beautiful baby in this post. Mazel tov.

I closed my account when I fired myself. I'm not sure I want it anymore. I never did care about having a little icon by my name. I only got it because certain people always seem to have problems with my comments. I figured (naively), that if I had a gravatar, they could quickly identify my comments and scroll the fuck past.
Unfortunately, I often used it for other purposes - to identify joke-name and spoof comments as mine. Occasionally, I gently spoofed other commenters. Without the gravatar, there is nothing (nothing obvious, anyway) to show that those spoof comments are mine.

O, the days when the Gravatar reigned. i feel we now leave an Era.

Thinking about it as you have is maybe the answer in itself- thought, care, courage and love will create the lesson you both learn even as you negotiate the roles of teacher/parent, child/student.
But you'll have a hell of a time saying no to her anyway, she's so cute!

so true, RickB...about saying no! thanks. :)

My ovaries would like to speak first:

BABY! Cutest little BABY!

Now that that's done

It's a strange thing . As I 'm now older amongst my peers who came up just at the beginning of the very free love open opportunities age

And from the people I know ( only those people I know) what I find happened a lot in my house that didn't happen in a lot in other houses where a l ot of " honoring the child's will" happened was my parents talked to me.

I never ever heard cause I said so , even when I was told what to do. I heard a lot of "here's why" or " I know you'd prefer but here's why we can't" .

MY mother felt it was important to let me know early that she was preparing me for other stuff, and that until that time

TOUGH FRACKING LUCK . She was an adult I Wasn't yet

Which for me was chaffing among my much more allowed to yutz about peers but on the flipside I always knew she'd be involved and I was always treated with respect.

So is the problem the violence or the force that is exerted on the steel or the fact that the stell is often not seen for being steel instead of being a product of the violence?

PS . YOur website keeps igning me out do i need to do something?

thank you! and your ovaries.

hmmmm i dunno! that's odd. about signing you out...

yes, for myself i feel that unyielding and warm love with self-confident and firm guidance is the combo. and both elements have to be there. and i like what you say about how your parents talked to you. that's what i mean, respecting the child. not listening to them when it comes to what the parent knows is best. respecting the will. i dont mean necessarily heeding it.

I think people in general handle babies and toddlers quite disrespectfully and I can remember hating it myself. It's the same with the aged, the disabled, etc.

Lunita's cuuuute!!!

yes, i agree. many people view/handle children as things that dont have quite as many feelings or rights to consideration.

and thanks!

Very intriguing thoughts, Nezua. Once again I appreciate the nuanced style of your awareness.

I happen to agree with you that learning is a type of psychic violence. However, I'm not opposed to all violence. ;-)

In the Buddhist tradition, it's said that the child actively seeks to have her mind imprinted by parents and teachers (not necessarily school teachers, just grown-ups they're exposed to). This imprint gives the consciousness concrete discursive form, rather than the amorphous kaleidoscopic wonder that is the natural state. This allows the child to grow into an adult capable of navigating this dangerous world. So I offer the notion that the violence of the act of imprinting a child's consciousness is not the problem; the problem is a bad imprint, one that weakens or subjugates or otherwise confuses the spirit of the imprinted. Whereas a good imprint empowers the spirit to continually assert itself and evolve. Which is quite similar to what you're saying (did you know that you are a Buddhist? hehe...).

We also say, in Buddhist mysticism, that the job of the spiritual teacher is to re-soften and then re-imprint the mind of the student with a negative of the existing imprint, for the purpose of liberation from all discursive form and a return to amorphous kaleidoscopic wonder.

In the Zen tradition it's said that the mind is like a field of soil (ya know, they were mostly farmers back then when all this Zen nonsense got started): the child's mind is a field of soft wet soil, and when you run a wagon through it, the wheels leave deep tracks; once those tracks dry out and harden, the wagon wheels will always automatically fall into and follow the tracks that were first laid down. And so spiritual practice might be described as the process of wetting the soil again, unleashing a rainstorm upon the field, erasing previous imprints; then laying down new tracks. Over and over and over again.

What does all this mean? First of all, I think your approach to your daughter's education is really admirable, even moving; you're taking great care to provide her with the best imprint you possibly can. And ironically, I'd offer the idea that the goal of this first imprint is to enable the adult to seek liberation from that very imprint. A bad imprint haunts and contricts the spirit for the rest of a person's life; a good one enables a person to seek liberation.

Yes, I know, this whole cycle of life thing is rather silly, going round and round. But damn it's beautiful too, innit?

Namaste.

it sure is, bro.

thank you kai. this is very useful. and i do appreciate you calling me names. :)

thanks for the reference on related topis, Trin. and i appreciate your thoughts on this. that's exactly what i'm saying.

thanks for the link, soyinkafan. good thoughts.

yes I see where you're going, and it is a good discussion you've got. I'm afraid I write a lot as someone who benefited from absolutely terrific teachers. Not all of them are, but i would go so far as to say that they really had to manhandle the hell out of me to shake me off the "student's know everything" style that somehow I was warped into believing, i suppose by marketing people...

I appreciate you're thoughtful post and the follow-up.... but i think i still react to the violence metaphor. Nurturing is forceful sometimes, but i don't know that all force is violent, anymore than all language is. It is just a way we communicate. I tell this damned plant not to grow that way cause it looks all shaggy, and then i whack off some of these deadish tendrils.... and both of us are happy again in a couple of days.

The latin, you know, "educere," to draw out, always gives me a sort of gag reflex reaction, but I am not writing anything here as a father, or anything like that. Just as someone interested in both violence (making less of it) and education, (making more of it), and especially as someone interested in metaphor. So I am not writing in response to your over-all post, but just to the metaphor, which as a peaceloving metaphor maker, I wonder if its not a little, well, violent considering your intent.

Yes, ashes77, it's so true that we write from our own path. I was trying to withhold referencing that which informs my own writing, though I do it so often. There are times personal anecdote will further an example, and times it will distract. I do not always know which is which. But given you speak of your background now—and I do find it helpful in context of your words and our disagreement—I speak from someone who learned some hard lessons about authority or those who would misuse the trust of the student or the young. [update: i have also had important and memorable teachers along the way.]

And when you say "So I am not writing in response to your over-all post, but just to the metaphor, which as a peaceloving metaphor maker, I wonder if its not a little, well, violent considering your intent," what metaphor are you reacting to? You are, after all, the one who introduced sheet metal and hammers, no? I am merely noting that shaping a person's will is a form of violence. There is no metaphor there, really. Unless by now I've confused my own words!

Please trust me when I say that one of the first lessons I determine is needed in the past, when I have dealt with bright, young people who would come to me to learn (I'm talking 20 years younger, so I did have a couple things I could teach them) is how "arrived" they think they are sometimes. Please do NOT confuse this eye toward "violence" with that! Because I could write a whole other post on that. And there, I fully agree with you. Students need far more humility than I see them with today. The youth do in general. We have lost any notion of the elderly or learned as our Wise people. But that's another topic for me. One that talks about our misguided locus of beauty and worth in this culture.

Thank you Nezua. I'm glad to see that my thoughts are useful to you! :)

OT--nez did you know that your feed thing isn't updating? did you switch or something? I've not been visiting your site cuz my feeder says haven't been updating!!!

anyway, Kai, I think i'm going to have to reread your comment about fifty times to get it...really freaking deep.

Nez--this type of parenting is really really hard for me to do--i've spoken before about my super strict father--it's hard to undo those lessons taught on how to be a "good" parent! it's a constant learning lesson with kids-my only goal with them is that I don't land them in years long therapy.

Lunita = Espesanza....

Esperanza....hay Dios....

PAZ Hermano,
I really like your blog, very inspirational and truthful. Please feel free to check out my blog's www.yellowseed.blogspot.com and www.in-dios.blogspot.com.

Palante Siempre!!!!

PAZ!

great post. it makes me think of the term "collateral learning," which john dewey (dead education philosopher) coined and used. what does a child learn when she is sitting in a grid of thirty kids taking orders from an adult? well, maybe she learns addition and subtraction. she also quietly learns about whose voice is valued and what behaviors are sanctioned. that's probably the most benign example of the collateral learning that takes place in education institutions. most of the other examples probably constitute child abuse.

bfp you're so right about it being a learning process. no doubt. i wonder if anyone gets perfect at it. i know i'm nowhere near close.

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thanks, sha-king, i will check them out. ¡paz!

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thanks erizzle. that's exactly the type of things i'm musing on...

i taught to day and thought of you. I was depressed as shit by the end of it.
GOd these kids are behind me five years and im petrified for them.

right on, rafa

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um...i'm glad to have helped depress you? :) i hear you, blackamazon. and i always feel so honored to know i am in the company of teachers. you, cero, another one or two. right on! no wonder the comment threads get so zesty up in heah. big brains! big mouths! :)

Welcome new father, welcome to the greatest cause. From my third decade of parenting many children allow me to pass back the most absolute rule of parenting I have found.

Your children are usually not listening, but they are always watching.

Well, I appreciate that Moebius. And I definitely do learn more each time. Although I'm not exactly a "new" father, although it's all new in a way. Each time I am in a different place in my path of personal growth. My oldest son will be 19 this summer. Can you believe it?

What you say is a good thing to keep in mind. Thanks for that reminder, my friend.