Well, my reaction(s) to the whole thing more or less parallel yours. N.B. - I do not consider BDSM transgressive - actually I think mainstream culture is pretty BDSM-like generally. Not that I am telling anyone not to do it, etc.; I am just not convinced it is revolutionary. And anyway, I do not think the point of CD's post was anti-BDSM, it was anti-women's exploitation/torture/etc.

Also: I think people are too quick to say, 'oh oh, you are generalizing about white men' - they always want attention to the white male exception, but that is part of the feeling of entitlement. The same people often sling around generalizations about everybody else pretty easily. And sometimes, at least as a starting point, generalizations can be all right.

i appreciate hearing your viewpoint on it, cero. i was getting lost in all the flimflam. and mostly, i thought to myself "this here is a woman writing and working stuff out. here is another woman coming along and sharing. why does a man need to come in here and assert the SmackDown?"

it just felt like shutting the discussion down to me, like male strongarm junk. i mean...so the wimmenz are getting loud or extreme...let it be! go write a post about it. i'm always wary of anyone who rides into someone else's post that way, i guess.

thanks for the check.

You said everything I would've wanted to say, but better.

as a woman who does BDSM, and who sees her sexuality as closely tied to her disability and disability rights issues, I am very tired of people deciding for me whether and how my sexuality and my choices benefit men rather than me.

(that first link has some BDSM-y imagery, just to warn folks... forgot that that link goes to SexAbility rather than to my spot)

i agree with you trin. its up to each person to decide what works for them sexually. absolutely.

i was more referring to the thread about women living with rage and such. but i appreciate your point of view. as i said, i dont think its anyone's business to decide BDSM is out of line for someone else! sex is pretty much an area i dont feel its my right to dictate to others.

thanks sadie.

trin there's a woman who used to be a close friend of mine... i'll point you to her journal and you can see if you dig her writing. i just think you guys would totally get each other. she lives in a constant level of physical pain due to her own condition, and i thought of her as i read your post about so much of anti BDSM being rooted in ablism. (you're right as i think about it...and i also think that so much must be. like a world for righties). i thought of how her experience of this pain and hypersensitive pain threshold (she could take a lot, but everything hurt her) informed her thoughts and everything about her and how it made different things precious to her....it was a learning experience for me to know her. i didnt' realize untl that point...or hadnt thought of it how some people have to live in constant pain. it was scary to learn that for me. and at the same time, i understood it for my own reasons...

but i'll write you.

and again, trin, i really read CD's post as talking about men who got off on seeing women in pain. not so much as saying it was morally wrong for women to do what they want. but i do understand and agree with your point.

hm. i have to say, (and I don't really know where to leave this comment, whether her's or your place--I don't want my first post over there to be negative, but at the same time I don't want it to look like i'm hiding or something--) I find the comparison to be shaky at best and offensive at worst--porn is an act. whether you agree with it or not, it's an act. That man in that picture--that was *real*. no matter what you think of slavery/race--the scars on that man's back were *real*--the pain he experienced when it happened--the pain he experienced trying to sleep on that mess of scars--the pain he experienced no longer being able to feel his back--that is all *real*. I've seen this a lot--comparing porn to pictures of *real* violence--renegade evolution has photos up where anti-porn people compare bdsm to the abu graib torture. but the thing is--the violence against the men is *real*. It's not a valid comparison. A picture of a woman who has *really* been violated--like your loved woman, nez--*that* would be a valid comparison. But I think that most women know that putting a picture of a woman who has *really* been violated up on an internet site to make a point about their own political beliefs just isn't going to fly. I, for one, would be outraged. For example, all the feminist orgs that used to use Rosie Jimenez's picture to make their point--they are/were absolutly repulsive to me. (the pic that they usually use is a pic of her lying naked on the floor, blood every where, she's on all fours, like she was rocking in pain before she died--she's in a very vulnerable position, and they used that to make their fucking point.

Anyway, I'm off on a tangent.

In regards to your question nez--i agree--i think the "not *all* X people are like that" is really a derailment. the topic then becomes "please promise me you don't think i'm a bad person" and NOT "holy shit, that's some really horrible stuff, what can we do to fix it?" or even "I never knew--I'm so sorry". Some times, like you said, you just need to feel comfortable not being the center of every damn body's attention.

okay, sorry for derailing then. :) I read "analysis of the post" and went with that before I even saw the comments. D'oh.

as far as what you were saying in the thread... i think you're right on.

i think reading and hearing women's rage is important too. and how much boundless rage is there at the use of our bodies... it's not something that is easy to talk about because it just IS so fury inducing.

"you're right as i think about it...and i also think that so much must be. like a world for righties"

that too. i have carpal tunnel in my right wrist so i'm currently using my computer mouse left-handed. i went looking for a nicer, ergonomic mouse, many of which are contoured to fit the thumb (so they have an orientation.) NONE at all in the store were leftie mice. not one.

It sounds like something triggered bad memories. The men who felt they had to go in there and make assertions came off looking like assholes to me.

"didnt' realize untl that point...or hadnt thought of it how some people have to live in constant pain. it was scary to learn that for me."

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. That's where one chunk of the ableist rhetoric about "quality of life" comes from. Complete ignorance about (and fear of) chronic pain. This idea of what it means that assumes it overshadows anything and you can't do anything, ever, and hate life and are, literally, better off dead.

Well, I have it (very minor in my case) from some operations, and it sucks big ones, but it's also in many ways just a part of my life.

bfp, you draw an important distinction, on the point of CDs post. i sort of sat back because i don't feel it my right to go in and dissect the content. i just wanted her to know i understood her anger...working though it. but maybe it would be good to hear your framing you know? maybe it would be helpful to her, given with love.

--

great comments trin.

--

thanks for the viewpoint, pat. i haven't gone back and i just dont see it as useful to fight over it any further.

Hi Nueza. I don't think I've ever commented here before (not sure why), but I'm a big fan.

When a woman, aggrieved in her personal life or not, paints all men with the rapist brush, she’s blaming a lot of innocent people.

She may be "blaming" a lot of innocent men, but when was the last time "blame" meant anything in regards to sexual assault? Even men who did it get away with it most of the time. At any rate, I personally do not hate all, or even most, men, although I am a feminist. Nor do I think that BDSM, engaged in willingly, is torture or abuse. But if you read the stories of women who hate all men or who think that all men hate us, you see that they usually have a good reason for doing so. Often these women have been seriously abused by men over and over, and if they don't feel safe or comfortable in the presence of men, nobody should begrudge them that. It's not like the small man-hating group of women in this country actually have any power, anyway, especially since getting power means playing by men's rules.

But stupid comments like the one quoted above are what really make me angry because it assumes that all women walk around randomly accusing people of rape. We don't. Rape victims have such a small chance of finding justice in the courts that reporting a rape isn't worth it. Nobody will believe you unless you were attacked in a parking lot late at night on your way home from work by some homeless non-white man. The default setting is "She's lying" unless you meet all the requirements above. Men like vastleft act like they're scared of being accused of rape. Hoo-boy, that's a good one! I mean, if you do want to rape her, just make sure that you hang around her all the time afterwards, dropping little hints and threats here and there, and it's guaranteed that your case will never make it to court! vastleft does'nt understand that only are 2% of reported rapes are false, and that for every high-profile rape or sexual assault/harassment case, there are millions and millions that go undocumented.

Emily: "Men like vastleft act like they're scared of being accused of rape. Hoo-boy, that's a good one! I mean, if you do want to rape her, just make sure that you hang around her all the time afterwards, dropping little hints and threats here and there, and it's guaranteed that your case will never make it to court! vastleft does'nt understand that only are 2% of reported rapes are false, and that for every high-profile rape or sexual assault/harassment case, there are millions and millions that go undocumented."

YES. And from what I have been able to observe, men by and large *do* know what is and is not rape (duh!). I get a little suspicious of the ones who say oh dear, I could be accused of rape, I might be accused, we might have a misunderstanding, we might disagree on the definition, and so on. As though the definition were irrational and they could not be expected to understand it ... ?

I really freaking wish I hadn't read that comment thread. Well, I only got through about half before I couldn't take it any more.

Nezua-I respect what you said about men not dictating women's experience-that's an excellent perspective. I shouldn't come over here (or anywhere else) and dictate your experiences with racism.

But men need to speak up. What happened in that comment thread was disgusting. A woman leaves a comment that upsets poor white man, she comes back later and clarifies what she meant, but it doesn't matter - it's too late for her. She can be attacked and dismissed as a MAN HATER. He not only dismissed her points and ignored her explanation, he started calling up examples of unjust behavior to compare it to the oppression the poor freaking white men experience. When that shit is going on, then yes, men need to SPEAK UP. Men should be piling on at this point-and YOU, all by your lonesome, did. Thank you! You gave him excellent advice, though it seems to have been a wasted effort. Of course women need to speak up, and they do. But in situations like that, when a man is behaving badly, men need to be the ones pointing out the awful behavior, and demanding that it stop.

thank you for that. i'm unsure in these areas. and when the heat starts turning up, its easy for me to get caught up in it. plus i'm never sure when i might be "taking on" something for someone that i ought to let them handle themselves. i'll feel it out. but comments like yours help me orient. so thanks a lot.

I agree. I came back to this because I wasn't sure if you understood I wasn't putting you in the same class as the men who were attacking her. I thought your comments were excellent.

you know pat, i did wonder. was sort of hoping you didn't mean me! i decided to stop wondering becase i couldn't be sure and that can drive you crazy.

so thank you for clarifying.

You're welcome.

Ay. What a thread. Between the actual content and the talking-past, it was...really something.

It went in all kinds of directions, for me. Everything's like that, but still.

Your observation about the shape of the conversation was really accurate. When women commented (Belldame stood out for me, both because she said what I wanted to say and because, well, she's Belldame), nobody engaged them. The entire conversation had shifted to the male-dominated ping-pong about what women really mean. That was weird, but not surprising. And not even all that bad, on your part... the system is fucked up enough that we literally cannot do this alone. We need you to speak for us when our voices cannot be heard. We need people like Chris Clarke to point out what we've been saying all along. Whether we like it or not (and that's a whole different discussion), we need allies.

On the other hand, it brought up the Sex Wars for me. Circles and circles and circles. I think we can criticize the system (who is the bondage porn for? what messages is it sending? who is consuming it? who is participating in it?) without criticizing the validity of the choices involved at an individual level (whether that's participating in BDSM, or being a sex worker, or being an anti-porn activist, or identifying as asexual, and so on and so forth). I just don't see that happen too often, and it makes me wince. Do I have to turn in my feminist card over my sexual proclivities? Is what I like the problem, or is it the system that twists and commodifies and distorts sexuality the problem? (Echoes of another conversation - Is race the problem, or is it hate? Do we need to be blind to differences to mitigate their harm, or can we embrace them and villify the system that makes them harmful to begin with? I vote for the latter.)

On the other other hand (can I borrow one of yours?), there's the reasonabilty argument. In the same Pandagon thread I linked above, the conversation veers toward whether all women live in fear (or hypervigilance) of all men (all the time). There's branches for the argument in many places "ALL women?" "Fear?" "ALL men?" "ALL the time?" and different answers. But for the most part, for me, it boils down to what Emily said. For some women it is reasonable. And even if the fear isn't justified by numbers,* to say 'that hardly ever happens, get over it' is to totally miss the point, because it's not about the odds, it's about the damage. If it does happen, the damage is enough to warrant the fear. Even if it's rarer than winning the lottery, the horror of the actuality is what scales the fear. Not the likelihood that it will ever happen to you.

On the foot (I'm running out of hands)... bfp's got a good point about the performative aspect of it all. Who is performing for whom? What are they drawing on? Porn and abuse are linked, but not always in exactly the way that's being pointed at. Between image and action are intermediaries of message, frequency, contrast... and all manner of competing tropes. Coercive sexual action doesn't just come from seeing tied up women all the time; "women just don't like sex" (so therefore we have to trick them/take it), "men are just animals" (so we can't help it) and "sex is dirty" (let's not talk about dirty things/you've been shamed by taking part in it) all have their place. Gyrating nymphets on the silver screen and "sex ed" that leaves you confused about where your private parts are. Sexual mores where penises have are power and vaginas are passive receptacles. And so on and so forth. That doesn't mean a person can't choose to focus on any one of these things, or that we should just give up, but... an exclusive focus on this-one-aspect is a dangerous thing.

(Which leads me to all the little toesies about participation and performance, and the people who actually enjoy what they do. Where do willing sex workers fit in? Where does the BDSM proper community fit in? How does ableism come into it? Who is, and is not, appropriate party to this discussion?)

..and I've spun off into academicland, just sitting here. Ah well. Good post, though.

* Seriously, what fear is entirely justified by its frequency? If fear of death was rational, we would be terrified of cars, hard candy, and pools, and never think twice about plane crashes. If fear was quantitatively rational, we'd leave the terrorists alone and get damn serious about bullying and eating disorders.

While I understand her questioning those images and asking why such things are considered erotic, it is important to point out, as BFP did, that there is indeed a difference between a woman who chooses to engage in BDSM play and one who is involuntarily forced to submit to beatings and humiliation, as many of us have been.

The thing she forgets is that in a BDSM scene, the woman, indeed who ever is the submissive partner, has as much control over the scene as does the dom/me partner. At any point that person has the power to stop everything. This is far different from a victim of abuse who has no power to make her attacker stop hurting her and had no say in what exactly was going to happen in the first place.

Comparing the suffering of real slaves and real rape victims to the photos of a woman in BDSM play is trivializing the victims and taking away a woman's choice over her own body and what she wants to do with it. Isn't that contrary to what feminism is all about? And yes, I realize that there are men who will like those images because they feel that women ought to be subservient and submissive but can we really say that that it is all men who look at those images who feel that way?

good points. as an added note to your last sentence: it is also not always hateful to want someone to be submissive sexually, if in real life you treat them with respect and as a person with their own boundaries, will, and autonomy.

anyway, thanks for your thoughts. perhaps you would be doing CD a favor by commenting there and sharing your ideas with her. sometimes we need these views that are at odds with our own. this is the value of sharing some of that stuff in public forums such as these.

My argument in the original discussion was: The answer to bigotry and abuse is not more bigotry and abuse. That is, demonizing all men and all people who participate in BDSM and/or porn consumption isn't a particularly progressive, enlightened position.

Some of y'all are having fun with narratives you seem to enjoy but which are wholly unfounded from the original discussion.

maybe it's me, VL, but you are capable of quite a righteous and condescending tone, bro. "having fun"? i dont' think anyone here was "having fun." just sharing in a conversation that has many angles. if you want to address one or more of those angles, feel free to do so specifically.

anyway, i think the conversation is over. but thanks for stopping by, albeit somewhat tardily.

Nez,

When I'm the brunt of a round of wild-ass amateur psychology ("Men like vastleft act like they're scared of being accused of rape"), I should think that calling these musings "having fun" is a rather restrained response.

Fair enough. As I said, you can always engage their points if you like. However, at this point, I suppose that is useless, and I imagine you would agree. I think—as you said in your own way—there are different focuses in the the conversation....on male/female interaction...on privilege and philosophy. I'm not sure any people will be making the leap to the other "side" so to speak. At least not at the moment. Maybe we all take something from it anyway. One can only hope.

Oh yes. Absolutely. Trying to place value judgments how someone chooses to play in their bedroom is foolish. Human sexuality is far too complex for that sort of thing.