On immigration, this is a must-read:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070625/mello

I thought great, a change of mind, even if its within the clique should be welcome, but then....

and the immigrant groups haven't been in the fight with moral arguments that we can understand and get behind.

WTF?

I swear I am not stalking you Rafael!

{I read this, thought, hmmm should I send to Nez, no- he's very busy trying not to strangle certain skinheads.} - and that same bit stuck out to me, "haven't been in the fight with moral arguments"???? Maybe they just need to ask, where's the kindness? The whole thing was a bit cynical strategist speak to me, kind of what's in it for me? (votes).

Cero- I'm not a subscriber, might a kindly soul paste the piece into comments?

yeah, i mean of course i'm glad with every blogger or person who gets involved with this. but come ON for crying out loud "man up" and just stop pretending that you have not been because of some rational (ridiculous) reason like that. just makes it worse. i dont mean everyone, but MyDD particularly after that crap post about it being a "pet issue." it just looks so lame to say this junk now. "no moral argument"??? like you said. they dont care until there's some dry campaign related issue to "justify" caring about humans getting fucked over? okay, carry on.

and the immigrant groups haven't been in the fight with moral arguments that we can understand and get behind.

That whole "people dying in the desert because they want to pick strawberries for four bucks an hour because Archer Daniels Midland looted Mexico and they lost their farms" thing is a land management issue, not a moral issue.

jeje. exactamente.

Well, Chris: when you editorialize like that about your pet issue and you don't get down to the essential heart of the matter -- jealousy of our Freedom -- I guess it would sound moral. You gotta cut the bullshit. Geez.

Here I am, Slagging On The Progressive Bloggers again. When will I ever learn?

i dont know...i gotta say—i'd personally be embarrassed to admit that i couldn't "understand" why this is a pressing issue. given the 12 millionish humans in our country contributing to our economy with no protection, all the families broken up, the raids, the deaths in the desert, the hypocrisy of the GOP railing against ILLEGULZ while hiring them, the PrisonZ 4 Kidz, the beatings and deportations of brown americans... i mean, if i didn't get why this is one of the biggest issues out there today, i'd be pretty damn shy about saying so so baldly. nawmeen?

No worries RickB, I don't have stalkers I have followers!

And Nez, yeah I nah wha ya meen, bro! Its sick...

I'm beginning to sniff that this whooooole immigration thing is about dodging the bullet on the war on Iraq. Keep folks busy, focused on something closer at hand. While Iraq is bleeding money into sacks marked "Halliburton"...

It's part and parcel of the Game. Dying in the desert or factory or fields, having every last salmon killed and sold, having your kids' future determined by fiscally starved schools, watching your lover die in the emergency room because the ER staff thinks brown women don't get sick but are just trying to scam drugs, having to choose between heating oil and your anti-seizure medication, all those things are just Talking Points. They're not moral issues. Moral issues are issues that affect real people. And they're not real people. How could they be? They're not on MY blogroll. They might be clever hooks for opening paragraphs in blog posts, local color to get people to read below the fold so that they can see how we can fix immigration problems by supporting Terry McAuliffe, help welfare recipients by enacting Bill Clinton's policies.

It's all a game. I'm currently taking shit for suggesting that no one would peep if the democrats took power and kept the war going, and while I take shit, Hillary Clinton is being reported as having said she expects troops will remain in Iraq at the end of her second term.

Peep? Peep?

No peep, peeps. Just crickets.

If the Iraqi war dead can't be used to get Bush out of the White House anymore, they cease to become a moral issue. I suspect they'll keep on dying, though.

Of course when I say "no one would peep" I mean the likes of Stoller, not the grassroots. Though I'd be very pleased if Stoller proved I was full of it on this one.

no, i hear you on the dems. personally, when they said impeachment was off the table, i gave up. if we let bush do all he has done without calling him on it, then fuck it. the law, the nation, congress, the constitution, none of it means a fucking thing, and especailly not the dems calculating, self interested, weakass nonsense.

and i agree on the rest. you said it well.

peep.

peep!

I probably should not say anything, being a canadian and all, even
though we have our own covert racism here, but since what happens in
the US reflects all over the world, I want to add my outrage. It is
all connected in a certain world view that most whites have accepted and
have never really thought about until the fear is aroused. It is all
abstraction until it hits home and one has to decide. That is the moral/
ethical moment. I think we are at that moment. and make the decision.
Bfp has a post today about why she can no longer support the democrats.
wow, such courage. She shames me and in a good way because she is right.
What I want to say is use this moment. Flip it to the rightness of the
cause of people trying to survive this shit. The moral and ethical
arguments are all there. Everyone deserves the right to survive and
make a living. Just recently here in canada, the supreme court said
that we have a right to collective bargaining and not have governments
take that away which in my province they did. Anger can be a force for
good. I know I sound flaky, but shit, some of us want a better world
for more than our little tribe.

nah, you don't sound flaky. and people comment here from everywhere from el salvador to UK to canada to mexico to china. so you're quite welcome to speak your heart and mind.

i have been unregistered in any party since...2000? i hear you on the dems...this is not a blog that talks "democrat vs republican," so there wouldn't and won't be any announcement from me on abdicating support... except in my extended bio:

To continue—and conclude—our self-defining party, I will tell you another reason you will not hear a lot of talk here about the Republicans versus the Democrats or a running commentary on el gobierno: I think the State is harmful to people. I think the Democratic government is a sham. I think it is an illusion, and every one of us that participates and funds this giant war machine with our dollars is lying to ourselves (or biding our time until we can afford to leave).

—may, 2006

thanks for chillin and kickin it from your belly, rhondda

mmmm. looks marshmallow-y.

Lots of great comments that I heartily endorse.

But I have a question. I watched the video from the "Dreams Across America" group at C&L. I didn't take the time to look more closely at the group. But that particular video was framed completely from the vantage point of white (albeit small business) business people who are making a case for needing immigrant labor. It struck me as something that Bush and his corporate friends could endorse heartily (ie, how we can make more money off of using immigrant labor). I wasn't impressed if that's the basis for the "moral agrument" the group wants to make. Did others see it? And what did you think?

"when they said impeachment was off the table, i gave up. if we let bush do all he has done without calling him on it, then fuck it. the law, the nation, congress, the constitution, none of it means a fucking thing"

This is just how I feel. I couldn't stand Clinton, but he didn't do anything compared to what Bush, et al, have been up to.

"biding our time until we can afford to leave"

Damn, I feel this way too.

I don't read MyDD regularly, and that "Immigration Back" post just completely reminded me why. In addition to those crazy absent "moral arguments" you all mentioned:

"This is useful from a political perspective in terms of cutting out Bush's base even further. I'm not sure I buy that the immigration bill could come back; the Senate spent weeks on this bill, and that's valuable time. But even so, it's important to look at this debate for what it means in terms of our coalition work."

> ...

This is the kind of crap that makes people so hateful and disillusioned with politics. Repubs, Dems, they blatantly admit it's fundamentally about power, not the lives of 12 million people, their American families, their struggle for a better life, and a big ditto on many of the comments above.

God I'm so naive...

I cannot make sense of this. I am one of the most easily scared people I have ever met, and I cannot for the life of me understand why white Americans, from left to right, are going apeshit over non-US citizens being in this country. I understand what some commenters said about it being part of a strategy with the Iraq war machine, but again - I am a person who loves to not think about the horribleness of Iraq. Not because I want that situation to be ignored by me or anyone else, just that it's excruciating to face the reality of what's happening. And yet - I still can't grab hold of this Mexicans-are-coming-over-the-border-and-we're-screwed-if-we-don't-put-a-stop-to-it thrill ride.

It is so prevalent for people in this country to claim that mostly we're not a racist society, mostly we all can see that we're the same types of beings. But then - chronologically I remember starting to hear reports about how white people will soon NOT possess the majority skin color in this country, and then next thing you know, it's like somebody dosed the water supply with PCP and yelled FREAK OUT. If it's not about racism - I mean, it can't possibly be about something that is not racism.

What you said in May of last year, Nezua - I don't know if it's inherent to all types of States, but I couldn't agree more that this particular State is harmful to everybody. I think the complexity of the immigration injustices, and the war, and oppression that's going on in all kinds of ways - obviously it is too complicated to dismiss with happy platitudes. And yet I also keep getting this very simplistic thought popping into my head, about the unnaturalness of borders in the first place, and the degraded state of not wanting others to be okay, or not caring if they're okay even if you don't actively seek to cause harm. I'm not saying I dream of the whole world holding hands and living communally. God knows I love to have my own little apartment, and I would be bummed to lose it. I'm jsut having extreme difficulty believing that there isn't enough of everything in this world, or for sure in this country, where it doesn't need to be a choice between roof over my head or yours. [And I don't mean that in "The Secret" sense (no hard feelings to anyone who's into that)].

i think you've made pretty good sense of it joan. due to my focus, it's something that smacks me in my face enough times that i dont have much denial over it...just sadness.

you are right. first it was the census numbers being trumpeted. next it was the May Day 2006 parades. after that, it was the right wing getting freaked out and also capitalizing on the fear for various reasons. and now, all the intended receivers have picked it up and are resonating with loathing and fear and racism. and as we've seen and i've linked recently and many times—it's no longer a hunt for Mexican nationalists, it's about Mexican Americans, and even broader, about latinos. american citizens getting mobbed, beat up, deported...for being or seeming or looking brown or from latin ancestry.

i know its easy to see many of my stances as dramatic or romantic. when i talk of a Long War on mexico, or about The Haunted Land. but i do believe it. unfortunately, circumstances are bearing me out on that. i don't care about being right on anything so tragic. in fact, i just want to leave the USA now. and in time, i will. this place disgusts me in too many ways. i'm afraid it's only getting worse, too.

Hah. That was exactly the part that I zeroed in on. It's not that it's not a moral argument, it's that it's a moral argument they can't understand. Those aren't people dying, they're just numbers. Distractions from the problems real people face.

Or, y'know, I could just say "What Chris said." Hee.

Will someone pretty please take me with them when we all leave? Otherwise, I won't be able to make it out.

we'll swing by at eight. be ready!

Don't forget me. I'm over this.

"I remember starting to hear reports about how white people will soon NOT possess the majority skin color in this country, and then next thing you know, it's like somebody dosed the water supply with PCP and yelled FREAK OUT."

My first novel is set 300 years in the future and I was relating it to a friend and happened to mention that most people in America at the time are of Latino descent. This person said, "I guess the Mexicans won, then."

That set me aback for a moment. It's like people see it as an actual war.

Nezua, I'm all for starting a new country. You can be Prez Nez. ;)

Yep, it's all about politics to them. They think it's great that the immigration debate is fracturing the Repubs, without seeing what the hate is doing to latinos and their families. Yeah but come election time they are going to be sucking up for our votes. Well, I DON'T THINK SO!

Pat, I guess the only good thing about all this racism leaping to the surface is at least we are talking honestly instead of wallowing in feelgood american bullshit propaganda about our makeup and attitudes.

Prez Nez? Jeje. That's one vote. I'll have to think on my cabinet. I think I want one made of Mahogany. Or African Butternut.

Mariachi Mama, agreed. No fakers are getting my vote in 2008. And nobody who uses us for points and ignores the plight Latinos are suffering here. Period. If I even vote this time, its by the heart. Not the fear, not the Lesser of Two Evils.

What you said, Nez, about Mexican American and all brown people now being subject to suspicion/harassment/jailing is also why I am having these feelings of unreality. Which I am uncomfortable even saying, talking about how freaked out and dumbstruck I feel, since a) it's an impotent response and b) only someone who's not actually getting smacked in the face or in immediate danger of it is in a position to "feel like" what's going on is a smack in the face.

People getting assaulted by police in my hometown (Los Angeles), people getting kidnapped by authorities back east and in Oregon... In that movie, Mi Familia, that was out several years ago, there were scenes where Mexican Americans were arrested/kidnapped by police and taken to Mexico and left there as part of a "hey, these illegals are taking over L.A. and now we're putting our foot down and taking 'em back where they came from" campaign. It was portrayed as an atrocity in the movie, and yet in real life right now something similar is going on. The shock of it is, for me, as if all of a sudden I was informed that as a woman I would not be able to vote in the next election. Except that's never going to happen, and this is.

I don't want anybody, American citizen or not, treated the way people are being treated in "raids." The fact that it clearly is okay to have this policy directed at "certain kinds of brown people," is proof of policy towards all black and brown people, not an exception to it, or so it seems to me anyway.

I have a great deal of trouble ever getting interested in the Progressive Blogs for reasons just like this. They put me to sleep the few times I have tried to figure out their popularity. As an expat for 28 years I cannot vote anyway and also the concerns of these blogs are not my personal more international concerns.

"expat." you had to go and make me jealous, now.

--

i agree with your last point especially, joan. dead on.

What complete and utter bullshit (the quote from MyDd, that is). It's one thing not to care, or to have some reason why you're not writing about it. But to blame other people for your ignorance is just bullshit. Fuck off, you pencil-necked little apparatchik wannabe.

I've been away from the computer, Nezua, but I just wanted to say I'm sorry to hear the situation has gotten worse in the house (though glad you had a brief respite). All my best wishes to you and your family. I'm going to try to send you a little bit of money in the next few days; I wish I could do more.

my connection is slow so I haven't read the article yet, but at least your graphic made me laugh.

good enough!

joan, i know what you mean about unreality, surreality. hard to believe we're not in an old movie.

Mahogany? Sweet.

I'm so tired of what my country has become. We're off the Constitution and into some weird twilight zone world.

I don't want to have to worry about my nieces and nephews and children being shipped off to die so someone can make a quick buck. I dread finding out about the latest atrocity that's been done in my name with my money. It's never-ending, and I don't know how to make it stop, short of revolution, which isn't going to happen.

jeffaclitus, thank you for the heart, bro.

pat...i dont know what answer exists in the world for a caring, conscious person anymore. i mean as far as society. but this one ain't it. i say people have to pull their stakes out. you ain't stoppin this thing from going over the edge. there's too much momentum and too much inertia and mostly, too many profiting somehow off of every terrible policy and dynamic that's entrenched in our culture. i say shop around for a new land. and get out.

but that's just me. maybe blogs like MyDD will fix things by the next election. or the next one. or the next.