Okay, you've just stunned me.

"...I even admire the ruthless part. It's an important ability, given the right context and constraint."

What context? Whose constraint? And is behavior "ruthless" if it is subject to, can be influenced by constraint? When I hear ruthless I always think "Manifest Destiny" which I believe the Clinton's are acting out in a way.

well, at moments like this, words should be defined so that we are discussing meat and not scent.

for "ruthless" m-w.com gives "having no pity : merciless, cruel."

so if we go by this (and i think its safe to say that most people do), i'd have to redact. you are right. that's not how i was using "ruthless." i was feeling "ruthless" as a blend of "acting as if unstoppable" and "utterly determined to the nth degree" and maybe "devastatingly effective in martial congress." further, "merciless" cannot have "constraint" and i do not admire cruelty. (and i wasn't saying Clinton is cruel either!) so what i typed there makes no sense. i will amend it.

thank you.

i feel like i threw around a bunch of different ideas. did you have any other thoughts, carm? aside from helping me firm up my communication? (thanks again) :) for one thing, i'd be interested in hearing you expand on the Manifest Destiny theme.

Thank you for considering my comment. ;) I'm liking "devastatingly effective in martial congress". May we all claim unshakable resolve and unbending strength! I believe we are going to need those big time in the coming times.

word.

As one of the young people who are campaigning for Obama (I just turned the quarter-century), I'm really not liking the narrative being told by people, especially women, of Clinton's age. That we're all just succumbing to the fad, that we didn't care about politics until a handsome male appeared on the scene, that we won't stay engaged after the primary is concluded.

This isn't the first campaign I've volunteered with. I did my first canvassing route before I had my driver's license. And lest I fall into the trap of generalizing from my own experiences, it's not just me. I look around at my peers and see adults who are far far more media savvy than Clinton's generation. Who are far more aware of the way advertising works on us, and far more able to cut through the rhetoric and see what's not being said. I see engaged citizens who are getting involved in their local and state races, who are running for office themselves, who are active participants in their communities. Our participation isn't some fad, and it's not going to disappear as soon as the attractive (relatively) young male wins or looses.

As for the charge that we are too idealistic? I don't know. Maybe. My circle is more cynical than most. Speaking only for my small group of peers, we can see that Obama is playing the system, saying things he would rather not say becuase it is a political necessity, making compromises that in an ideal world no one would make. Neither he nor his supporters are blind to the reality of American politics, or the knowledge that change isn't going to happen overnight and that he'll have to fight on two fronts simultaneously: one, to push his agenda through playing by the old guard's rules and two, to completely redefine the rules of engagement. Youth, and especially youth of color, know how the system works and that you have to play it to get ahead. I find it insulting that the Clinton camp would say otherwise.

Man, I'm sorry. I didn't intend to write something long enough to be a blog post on it's own. The way the older generation has been drawing lines in the sand, especially among feminists, has really been getting to me.

i appreciate all that, dont be sorry. theres so much going on, you could talk forever on the intracacies, sociological, psychological, political, personal....

way back when many prominent poc voices (and more than a few even in the afrosphere) were afraid of obama's wariness to commit to people of color (i'm not knocking that stance; it made sense to be wary, just as it made sense for him to be careful with the topic) i was stating the very same opinion. that you just gave. of coursehe is playing it safe! give me a break, i said. he is a BLACK MAN RUNNING FOR POTUS!!! it just made sense to me. and in time, he proved it with the unprecedented and bold (to put it mildly) Wright speech, which THEN he was criticized for "only giving because he had to"!!! (But not by p.o.c. that time, of course.)

thanks for your experience.

Youth, and especially youth of color, know how the system works and that you have to play it to get ahead. I find it insulting that the Clinton camp would say otherwise.

nothing they say should be examined for meaning. only strategic weight. after all, that's the spirit in which they make their public statements.

nothing they say should be examined for meaning. only strategic weight. after all, that's the spirit in which they make their public statements.

Yeah, you're right. I don't know why I even give them the time of day anymore. It's just hurtful, still, even though I shouldn't expect any better, to be told, repeatedly, that I'm just a stupid young thing who doesn't know any better. See also this absurd article where women of my generation are called "missy," "chick," and "honey." And she's calling for renewed respect between generations? Please.

Hari....Thanks for your input. I was an activist through the '68 Chicago convention...after which I threw in the towel. (a long string of expletives followed) I did vote thereafter, for Nixon the 2nd time around hoping that 4 more years of him would spell the end of politics as we knew. The damn Dem's impeached him too soon.....Nixon could have done a lot more memorable damage. After Nixon I only voted for Barbara Jordan, even after she died. I am glad you and your peers are able to take see and recognize the rhetoric for what it is and and least consider alternatives. I was just mad, and so I have been assuming that the youth of today would be the same if their efforts are thwarted by the system. I don't know how representative your group may be, but I hope it is larger than I suspected.

Wow, Hari Mirchi I had no idea that meme was being pushed, the Handsome Male Charge. I have to say, that sounds like a terribly sexist accusation to make. Or at least incredibly insulting.

It is terribly insulting, indeed!
I was having a conversation at dinner with someone about these things, and your post resonates a lot with what we were saying; I don't hate her, I even admire many of her qualities,but I sure as hell don't want her in office.

"There are far too many reasons to dread the Clintons moving back into the White House, and the least of them the amount of baggage they bring on the move. "

Oye, that's what I been saying, but not as eloquently as you. Nice.

And I hear you on the immigration angle as well. My whole family (except for my brothers in laws) got behind Clinton except for me. We had arguments into the night about it and the point that gente kept hammering was that she's 'a supporter of us latinos'. Then I would argue, 'Where you see that exactly?

I'm not down with this shady operator stuff anymore. Like in any relationship, it's nice to start fresh with someone you don't have a long dark history with.

it's nice to have a fresh start with someone you don't have a long, blanched history with. word.

and i have to make clear. i don't like her. i really actually think she exemplifies one of the most loathsome sets of political types i've seen. i do not respect her amorality or duplicity. but i feel i at least understand her a tiny bit now. and i meant to boil it down to the fact that she seems to honestly not understand the backlash. she seems to honestly feel this is THE way you win office. which of course, only jams her on the Relic shelf.

I do wonder what the great activist Saul Alinsky would say about her now, considering some her Alinsky-type tactics she is using is being criticized. Both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama claim that their political character have been influenced by the teachings handed down from Alinsky, however, only one of them met the guy. Clinton wrote her undergraduate thesis at Wellesley College on the life and ideas of Alinsky and in fact, Alinsky offered her a job. She is masterfully using Alinsky's Rules for Radicals tactics #5, #8 and #10.

Rule 5: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It's hard to counterattack ridicule, and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.

Rule 8: Keep the pressure on. Once you identify a potent adversary, seize every word, every event -- no matter how trivial - and turn it around to your advantage. ... Make a big deal of it. Keep doing it. Over and over again. Eventually, you will wear down your opponent and win. And the bloodless revolution succeeds.

Rule 11: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it.

The agitator's job, according to Alinsky, is to use the most effective means, whatever it is, to achieve the desired ends.

True, Obama is a tempered radical, however, the question we really have to ask ourselves, how much of his soul did he have sell just so he can fit in the dominate culture to "play the game"?

Depending on the outcome of my state, I am voting for a true radical, Cynthia McKinney.

she might be savvy, but in the process, clinton is also a total hypocrite and a sleaze. everytime she was hit hard she whined about unfair play, about boys ganging up on her and then pretending she is breaking glass ceilings by pandering to stereotypes just before mocking obama for talking about unfair treatment. its gross. sure, win at any costs, but i have minus respect for her. obama if anything now needs to figure out how to become aggressive in a way that retains honor and push his positives. he is being buried by others' definitions of him. i do think he means to be radical. i dont know if he can pull any of that off.

as far as third parties, well...i dont know that i want to vote for anyone who has zero chance of winning. i dont need a feel-good symbolic vote to know what i believe in. altho i do see it as a good thing to vote in those situations anyway because enough people vote and it shows people like her that they are supported.

but frankly man i'm just sick of all of this. i have more pressing issues right now to fill up my time with.

and if you recall, i stated Rule 5 to BH list when they were trying to figure out how to counter dobbs interviews and such. tho people didnt bite. maybe cuz i didnt put a number before it. but yeah, i'm no stranger to psychological combat. and i always wear my big green goggles when i engage. cuz i have the most fun when ridiculing myself. there's not only no way to fight back then, there's nobody to do so.

paz, compa.

While it is true the Green Party has zero chance of winning, but the Green Party is a political entity that deserves to be built. As long as we continue by into this winner takes all mentality, then it will always be Republican and Democrat. Shouldn't we be allowed to have alternatives? Well all talk about being hungry for something new, but fact is, it will always be "Meet the new boss, Same as the old boss."

For me, my vote is not a symbolic-vote so I can sit smugly and look down a folks and remind people and say told ya so. Ghandi once said, "A 'No' uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a 'Yes' merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble."

My vote is an investment vote, a vote to start creating the much needed change. "A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history."